Friday, May 19, 2006

The Cowardly Lion

Some who have been following this blog might be confused about several posts. Who is this Bob fella, and what is our problem with him? One anonymous commenter, using the handle “Hiding Behind the Keyboard”, asked some pointed questions about one particular post What I learned from Bob. His questions were legitimate, and seemed to be asked in a good spirit, and so it seems I have some ‘splainin’ to do.

It isn’t that I dislike Bob. I dislike the way Bob has attacked certain churches and institutions. I dislike some of the slanders he has leveled against those institutions. But I don’t know that I like or dislike him personally. That really isn’t the issue. Nor is the issue merely doctrinal difference.

The problem alluded to in previous posts is a problem of cowardice and slander that characterize Bob’s attacks against the churches he named in his story. Bob was a member of both churches at one time. When he left those churches, he expressed that he was in agreement with them. After joining a third church, Bob changed. After leaving the third church, an Independent, Fundamental Baptist church, Bob began to attend a Reformed church. He changed doctrinally. He found himself in direct disagreement with the former churches. But instead of addressing his disagreement to those former churches, Bob put the disagreements up on the Internet for everyone else to read. He could have done this without naming the actual churches, but he didn’t. In his story, Bob named those churches. He named their pastors. But he never contacted either pastor, either before or after. He should have gone to them first. He should have gone to them privately. But he didn’t. And instead, he put it all on the Internet, of all places.

The Internet is a very public forum. It seems indecent to air out your differences on the Internet, especially when you haven’t addressed your differences privately. No pastor at either of the two churches named in Bob’s story was contacted. Bob put it on the Internet, and they just happened to stumble across it. That, to me, is cowardice.

It is not cowardly because Bob disagrees with these two churches. It is not cowardly because he questions things or because he has an “inquisitive mind”. It is cowardly because he never talked to either of these pastors about his differences. It is cowardly because the World Wide Web knew about it before these pastors knew about it.

The point about hiding behind the keyboard had nothing to do with the anonymity that is inherent to the Internet. Bob clearly did not make himself anonymous. Bob did not leave his former churches anonymous either. He put it all out there for everyone to see. But he did it from the safety of his computer. That way he could attack first, and put his former churches on the defensive. That way he wouldn’t need to deal with them directly. That way he could get his knocks in. He left them only one option – “come on my blog if you want to answer me”. This is unscriptural (Matt 18, James 3). And it is cowardly.

Courage would involve actually talking over disagreements with those you disagree with, especially if you intend to name names on the Internet. Sniping from the bushes, or in this case, from behind the keyboard, is anything but courageous. Any coward can do that.

Ironically, Bob says that he wishes he could still fellowship with these two churches. After he sniped at them from behind his keyboard! It seems disingenuous to make such a claim. It reminds me of the fox who asked the farmer, “why can’t we all just get along?” Bob called them shallow, mocked all they stand for, attacked their pastors, and then claims to long for fellowship with their people. He wants to fellowship with them like a wolf wants to fellowship with a flock of sheep.

The cowardice is inexcusable, but the slander Bob levied against these two places is deplorable. Bob attempted to lump them with the Hyles’ crowd and their ilk. That is a slander. There simply is no comparison between them and the “IFBx” crowd Bob is so fond of attacking. They differ in their philosophy, in their preaching styles, in their view of the gospel. They differ in nearly every way. But Bob attempted to paint these good churches as if they were all in the same crowd.

Interestingly, Bob has backed way off those attacks in his later posts. This is good. But there needs to be a full retraction. Did Bob use these church names to gain readers? Did he use them because they are well known among fundamentalists? Did he purposely paint them blacker than they are in order to score points with his targeted audience? I don’t know, though many of us feel that he did. But regardless, Bob slandered their good names, and did it in the most cowardly of ways.

That being said, this is not all bad. As David said when he was cursed, “God told him to curse and he has cursed”. We should count it all joy that he has done this. It is a blessing from God. And we must pray for him. God commands it. When he reviles, we must not revile again. When he curses, we must not curse. We must bless him, and pray that he would be blessed, and that God would turn his heart. God calls us to be peacemakers. We must be peacemakers. But woe to any Christian who believes that peace can be made without war.

We love our enemies, and we will not give way, no not for a moment.

25 Comments:

Blogger Kent Brandenburg said...

I want to make a true confession. I am going to share with your audience, Pastor Mallinack, some of my inward feelings, and I mean that. OK, here goes. When Bob left our church, I was relieved. OK, there, I said it. I mean it. It was how I felt. Relieved. I don't base my life on feelings, but it is how I felt. Why did I feel that way? I felt that way because, first, I knew that I wasn't going to have to take care of his wife and kids. Bob wasn't going to be able to do that, so when he left, I was spared that task. Second, Bob was a bad example in our church. I didn't have to have that around any more. Third, Bob mainly gravitated to those he could sponge theological conversation, not going to those who needed loving in our church to give it to them. Fourth, Bob always had an air of pomposity. Fifth, Bob was difficult to correct. Sixth, if Bob did do a "spiritual" task, he let everyone know. For instance, Bob wouldn't show up for men's prayer time on Saturday mornings because he was enjoying his mattress, but he was very public in organizing his own prayer meeting at night---making people feel like they didn't like prayer if they didn't show up. There are more, but six is good for now.

This is how I felt though at the time. Bob hasn't been repentant. For all the "lack of answers" he has gotten from us, he also hasn't answered Thomas Ross' huge letter, devastating his new beliefs. He talks like he doesn't have time, but it has been months, and meanwhile he takes tons of time to blog and spread his crummy beliefs and make people sinning like him to feel good.

Friday, May 19, 2006 4:15:00 PM  
Blogger Cathy McNabb said...

Pastor Mallinak in all do respect, Bob maybe very wrong with the crude he is spewing on the internet. I believe he is, otherwise I wouldn't be where I am.

However, do you think maybe our God is a big enough God to take care of Bob.

I had a major problem come up about how to handle a situation with a fellow pastor of ours. The spite in me really wanted to go to Indy and bust some chops. Believe me I would. But a friend reminded me on a blog comment to that it is Faith that God will take care of the situation and not I.

To see you stoop down to Bob's level was very disheartening to me. I know your a better man than that.

May I advise, have faith that God will take care of Bob and leave it at that.

Friday, May 19, 2006 8:08:00 PM  
Blogger Dave Mallinak said...

Cathy, I struggled with whether or not I should answer Bob. Letting it go would have been easier, and would probably keep me looking pristine and nice to most who don't know me. And the Bible does say answer not a fool...

However, the Bible also says answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. This man is wise in his own conceit, and unfortunately he has gained a following, like the pied piper.

So, I answered him.

God is big enough to take care of Bob. Maybe he wants me to be an instrument. Maybe not. But Bob carried out an injustice, and I cannot stand by consenting by my silence.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger Dave Mallinak said...

P.S. God was big enough to hew Agag. So he had Samuel take care of his lite work.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger Fundamentally Reformed said...

Pastor Mallinak,

Allow me to respond if I may. As you probably guessed, this will not be the "full retraction" you think is called for. I must say that this post is a little easier to respond to than some of your previous ones. At least in this post you are laying out exactly what you dislike about me and exactly where you believe I have erred. Thank you for clarifying yourself. [Just in case you wondered, I am not HBK--nor is he anyone I have met personally, that I know of.]

You say you believe I painted the churches I disagree with blacker than they are to score points with my targeted audience. May I suggest that you are painting my criticisms blacker than they are, to score points with yours?

You claim that I have levelled attacks against churches and institutions. I think the charge is in the eye of the beholder. Would it be fair to say that fundamentalists have attacked prominent conservative evangelicals like MacArthur, Piper, and Mohler? Or are they just bringing notice to where they differ with these men? I do not deny that at times I have overstated my case against fundamentalism, and I have sought to make sure I am not merely attacking this movement, but rather disagreeing charitably.

You further claim that I have slandered my former pastors and their churches. Slander is a direct falsehood spoken as truth against another. I am disagreeing with their stated positions and declared doctrines. At times I state that I believe certain structures and emphases inherent in fundamentalism tend toward other problems. I am careful to state when I am giving my opinion. In my letter, I criticized fundamentalism as a whole. I sang the praises of my former church in California, literally. I had little ill to speak of Fairhaven either. My harshest criticisms were of a church I specifically left unnamed in the world wide web. And even then the context was how I felt about the church at the time, it was recorded history. I went out of my way to speak good of that church as well.

After reading my story [anyone can read it and judge for their own self by clicking on my name here clicking on the title of my blog at the bottom, and then clicking at the "my story" link on the upper right hand corner of the blog] Jeff Voegtlin did not express outrage for my attacks. He apparently did not take it as an attack or even slander, but rather my recording of my own story and my own opinions/conclusions. He did appeal for me to be a bit more gracious to fundamentalists, and I responded admitting that I had great respect for many things about Fairhaven. I did go on to try to clarify how my critique applied to Fairhaven, but I did admit that I needed to be careful not to overstate my case. When people preach, or debate, overstatements are very easy to make. Jeff's comment and my response happened days after my initial posting of that story. And the story is really the most detailed critique I make on the blog. I went on to make a clarification post, and then with the new year I had a few posts claiming I was intending to be very careful not to bash Fundamentalists, but rather have an attitude of trying to help and still stand against what I felt were errors--but yet to do so in a charitable way. You yourself admit my critique's tone has mellowed of late.

You claim I should have addressed my disagreement to my former churches not everyone else. I make it clear that my disagreement really goes beyond the churches in particular. I do not feel I needed to call up Dr. Voegtlin and tell him I think he is wrong for being against Calvinism, or that I think his emphasis on external standards can have damaging effects on his people's sanctification. I have purposely not brought up some things on my blog out of respect for my former pastors--I feel to do so would border on slander, even if the information I have is true. Perhaps I should have consulted with my church in California before making my ultimate doctrinal changes. But as the leadership had not corrresponded with me, I felt odd corresponding to them about such sensitive matters. I had heard many arguments against the postions I now embrace while I was still in California. I sincerely felt I knew what they would say. In my own research I had to answer those arguments before I embraced the positions. On that point I may have erred, but I do not believe I did. I was no longer a member there and was separated by thousands of miles.

You go further and claim I am disobeying Matt. 18 and James 3. James speaks of using the tongue to hurt--lying and slander fit the bill, as do gossip. My mentioning the public beliefs and standards of churches, and then disagreeing with those public positions hardly fits the bill. And as for Matt. 18, this is dealing with a specific personal offense/sin--a fault between two brothers. I repeatedly mention in my criticisms that I feel the people holding the positions I now view as wrong are holding them sincerely and out of a desire to please God. I am not questioning that. I further explain that I understand how they must feel about me and my positions, since I used to feel the same way about my brother and his doctrinal stances. I have a very hard time understandin how Matt. 18 applies, especially when I was not even a member of those churches when I came to my new position.

How many independent fundamental Baptists bother to personally send a prominent evangelical a letter informing that person that they disagree with him--before preaching against this man publicly? And yet I am called a coward for not sending a letter or making a call to my former pastors? I know it is somewhat different since I knew my former pastors, and the IFB preacher does not know the evangelical leader. But still, I think it is strange to expect someone to inform you anytime they disagree with you on anything. I have no grand hopes of converting these men or their churches to my newfound positions. I do not think it is cowardly to just let them continue in their own way, while I go on in mine. My blog is about me declaring what I believe and pointing out criticisms which I truthfully think most IFBx types and many IFBs will not be interested in hearing.

You claim I am purposely painting these former churches of mine an extra shade of black because I claim they are IFBx. Now I have mentioned on my blog that they really could be considered IFBx with an asterisk. The KJV-only position is admitted by most of those over on Sharper Iron to be an IFBx position. I am borrowing that term from others who specifically would have no qualms applying it to the likes of Pensacola, Fairhaven, and other churches of my previous association. I hesitate at times using the term but I try to be clear in how I use it. I am very glad that Fairhaven and my old church in California differ greatly from the typical IFBx church. However in many stylistic points, methodologies, and leadership practices they are bed brothers. The preaching is much better at Fairhaven than at Hyles-Anderson, I am sure. But this does not mean that it is without comparison.

You think I am disingenuous to claim I desire fellowship with these two churches. You claim I "called them shallow, mocked all they stand for, [and] attacked their pastor". In my letter I said that fundamentalist preaching in general is shallow. If you read my praises of my former church in California, you would see I do not consider their preaching and church to be shallow. And I have not said that Fairhaven and its preaching is categorically shallow, either. You also state I "mock" their stand. I do not know why you choose to see it as "mocking". I disagree with many of their firm convictions and beliefs, and I also show why I do. Does this mean I mock them? I have stated that these differences are minor in comparison to our unified beliefs in Christ's divinity, the Bible's inerrancy, and the glorious Gospel truths. We all uphold the fundamentals of the faith, and such agreement far outweighs any disagreements on minor matters in my opinion. So this is not a disingenuous plea for fellowship. I already dealt with the charge that I am attacking pastors--I am not.

I am not sure that anyone will believe what I say here. I am not sure that this comment will stay around for long on Sharper Irony. But I feel I needed to give you all my side of the story.

As for hiding behind the keyboard, I wonder why Pastor Mallinak did not inform me personally of the vicious critiques of me he was going to post? As for slander, I wonder why other critics of mine see no qualms in bringing up personal information that was not disclosed to anyone as they vent about how frutstrating I am. And in so doing they do not even get their facts straight. Of course they could have informed me of their disagreements before they posted them, and I could have set the record straight for them.

Pastor Mallinak, I have followed your blog, but felt that commenting on it would not be a charitable thing to do. I did not think you would have wanted me to, and I did not want to be out policing all the Fairhaven blogs and commenting in an effort to spread my story to college students and church members. As I make clear in my letter, I purposely did not try to spread my beliefs to the people in the fundamental Baptist church I left before I left. I do not want to cause needless strife in a Titus 3:10 sort of way. However, I felt compelled to respond to this post as you brought me up to your readers.

I do pray that God blesses your ministry and your blog. I am thankful you are standing for Christ in the dark lands of Mormonism. I do admire your earnestness about living for God and your serious service for the cause of Christ.

God bless.

Bob Hayton

Saturday, May 20, 2006 11:28:00 AM  
Blogger Fundamentally Reformed said...

All,

Pastor Brandenburg's comments were not made directly to me, I understand that. Let me just say that I believe he is very grossly overstating his six points (and more unsaid) against me. The whole context for some of his remarks is not available to you all. My wife also has been shocked at these kind of remarks by Pastor Brandenburg about our time there. That may be how he interpreted it at the time, but many of these opinions were not communicated to us, rather the opposite were.

I do not want to get into a public slugfest with Pastor Brandenburg. I do still hold respect for his ministry and the level of commitment he shows to the pastorate. But I felt I had to be sure that you knew that this is one side of the story. (Although you probably assumed that I would feel this way anyway.)

But let me go on public record stating that what Pastor Brandenburg mentioned in his comment is gossip plain and simple. The public comments I have made concerning Brandenburg do not make such offhand disclosing of intimate information right.

Go ahead and slap him on the back. Give him a high five if you want, but this is just plain wrong.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger Kent Brandenburg said...

Bob,

If you don't want Carolyn to get hurt and offended then don't share this with her. The offended Carolyn thing isn't manly. You offend all the women of our church, and they are hurt by you. You offended the mothers of the students of your class, and they were hurt. I'm sure the women of Independent in Minnesota are also all hurt. So we are ahead on offended women.

Our problem with you is that NO ONE HAS LAID HANDS ON YOU. You set yourself up as a judge to people with NO AUTHORITY. You purposefully try to pull people into your way without them knowing anything about you, which is the way it should happen Scripturally, and in the real world. You shouldn't be blogging like you do. It is a free country, but I'm talking Scripturally.

Everyone, this ISN'T GOSSIP EITHER. I said this and more, more, more to Bob himself. He is a public figure which needs to be warned about. He does this all the time with other people at his blog. I have not said the least of it. If we wanted to really make Bob look bad, we could Bob, but that isn't the goal. You know this. I have kept the personal, well, personal. This is all the public. I have not said anything personally about your things.

And Cathy, Bob is doing damage and needs to be confronted. Saying nothing to him or about him IN HIS FORUM, is allowing him to have an influence. I realize that some is accomplished by ignoring him, because by commenting on here, he puts his link and people go look at his site and read. THAT'S WHAT I HATE ABOUT IT. On there publically, he encourages people to drink alcoholic beverage, go to the movie theater, be a five point Calvinist, an abomination (slacks on women), a compromiser, a non-separatist, a person who believes the Bible has errors, a universal, invisible church believer, and more. And he wants everyone to think that he is some sweet Christian man. This is where I'm leaving a whole lot out. He isn't. And I wouldn't even be telling you this, but he is out lecturing everybody like he is. No church has given him this authority to spread this doctrine. He does it on his own. And he has believed it about a year after he himself would have taken other positions while in our church. If I watch him at all, it is to see who he is talking to, to make sure the people who should be warned, should be warned. He knows how to get people on the web to listen to him, and a lot time to do it.

I could say so much more. I still will when I think I should. By the way, we all know Hyles and Trinity, Jacksonville, and Bob Gray in Texas are all bad, bad, and bad. We know that. Being independent and Baptist and believing in a perfect Bible doesn't make people bad people; just the opposite.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:20:00 PM  
Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus said...

I've seen Bob's website, and you're right Bro. Mallinak, he slanders good men. Bob left a good church, and entered into what is essentially a heresy (Calvinism). Cathy IS right in her comment above - our God is big, and those who set themselves against Him and His churches ought to be very careful. Bob needs to remember I Corinthians 3:17, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." Attacking good churches led by godly men is a good way to get on God's bad side.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:21:00 PM  
Blogger Cathy McNabb said...

"Go ahead and slap him on the back. Give him a high five if you want, but this is just plain wrong"

I agree Bob 2 wrongs never make a right.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 3:34:00 PM  
Blogger Dave Mallinak said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Sunday, May 21, 2006 7:34:00 PM  
Blogger Kent Brandenburg said...

For all who are concerned, when Bob says, "But let me go on public record stating that what Pastor Brandenburg mentioned in his comment is gossip plain and simple." That is what he pointed out was wrong. Well, this isn't gossip. Everything I am dealing with, I already dealt with Bob and. I have disclosed zero intimate information. Everyone in our church knows about this without me even telling them. What people don't know is the personal material and it remains personal, and Bob can be thankful for that. And I have not told the half of it. I wonder if I should tell the personal stuff too, only because Bob is setting himself up in a way that shows he is not repentant. He told me before he left that he would go to Minnesota and keep his mouth shut, and he has done JUST THE OPPOSITE.

Sunday, May 21, 2006 10:06:00 PM  
Blogger David Hayton said...

To Everyone but Cathy,

The grievingly sad, but bluntly obvious fact is that your biting and devouring one another (including my brother) does much to prove the error of your ways. God has graciously given us ways to ascertain the genuineness of faith: the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Your stunning lack of charity and your seeming persistent rebelltion against God's command to speak the truth "in love," have well nigh marked you as "schismatic" at least and "false teachers" at worst. Please be warned, and please examine yourselves and see if you are truly following Jesus. Scoff & howl as you may, the fate of your souls and the health of Christ's Body demands I challenge you so. Your error and pernicousness are evident to all (who have eyes to see).


To Cathy,

Please look to Christ as your hope and protection and joy. Please observe that these egotistical, unChristlike men will viciously "turn on you" the moment you evince any iota of honest disagreement. No pastor is above Acts 17:11 (including me!); and it remains the God-ordained responsibility of both men & women to search the Scriptures accordingly. You did not overstep your bounds in the role of Christian womanhood. But these men of arrogance would make you think so for sure. Mark them, and avoid them. Let the plain testimony of the Scriptures be your guide (including of everything I have said).


Dear God,

Please graciously intervene and put a stop to such "blogospheric wars" as these. Magnify the worth of Jesus and the Cross. Help us to obey your greatest command: to love you supremely and love one another whole-heartedly. Please, may it be so! For Christ's sake!

Monday, May 22, 2006 12:21:00 AM  
Blogger Cathy McNabb said...

To Anon at least I give my name, what are you afraid of? I love your 1 Tim 2:12 verse, You better have never learned anything new from a woman. The only people I have experience with throwing that one out are men with an ego problem, so why not go read the context, this isn't a church setting, it is the internet. I hope you never had a female teacher or a mother, because they both taught you!!!

Dave
you may think I am clamourous But I have done the internet debate and bickering alot longer then you. I have been burned and I have burnt others, I know what I'm doing, more then you think or know. I have made "educated" men run away or even ban me from their forums.
I will tell as a friend, you are hurting your testimony, and trtying to take cheap shots isn't helping your testimony any.

Here is some verses on what God has to say

Proverbs 10:14
Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 13:3 He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1 Corinthians 8:9
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Monday, May 22, 2006 12:59:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan said...

I'm not sure I would refer to Bob as a lion.

Monday, May 22, 2006 6:29:00 AM  
Blogger Dave Mallinak said...

Bob,

You said some nice things to me and about me, and I appreciate that. Obviously this issue is personal to others. To me it is not, other than that you’ve unjustly slandered friends of mine. Have I painted you blacker than what you are? I don’t know. Black is black, and when you start painting black, it tends to be pretty dark. I have not intentionally gone about to make things worse than they are. In fact, I think I went pretty light on you.

I am disappointed that you gave no more thought to my complaints against you than what you did. I hardly had time to turn around before you had an answer – and a lengthy one at that. We all struggle to be swift to hear, slow to speak . And you especially struggle to let your words be few . I would have hoped that you would seriously consider our complaint against you, and considered whether there might be some truth to it. We certainly did not fly off the handle in responding to your attacks. This was no reaction. In fact, we have thought it through at length and for some time. I asked many questions of those involved. I do not agree with some of the reactionary attacks that have been made against you, but I do feel that you need to be confronted. I did my own little investigation to be sure I had my facts straight. I discussed my complaint with Jeff to see if I was off the wall on it. Jeff agreed. So, needless to say, I was disappointed though not surprised by your quick response and cavalier dismissal of the complaint. Maybe you should listen more carefully this time.

I leveled two complaints against you. The first was that you acted the coward in taking your disagreement public when you had never even broached the issue in private. The second was that you slandered two of God’s churches. You deny both.

Yet you have slandered those churches, and you continue to slander them even in your reply. In the comment you posted on this blog, you said, “The preaching is much better at Fairhaven than at Hyles-Anderson, I am sure. But this does not mean that it is without comparison.” And you went on to say, “However in many stylistic points, methodologies, and leadership practices they are bed brothers”. Besides being offensive, it is just plain wrong. By the way, I appreciated you defining slander for me. You got the right definition. When I said slander, I meant exactly that. You have pawned off a lie as if it is the truth. “Bed brothers”? Are you kidding? They aren’t even in the same room. Not even the same apartment. Not even the same building. In fact, they aren’t even in the same neighborhood. I grew up in a “Hyles” church. I did a year’s time at Hyles-Anderson College. Growing up, my pastor was one of Hyles’ superstars. He drove up to the college every Tuesday to teach in the college. They gave him a doctorate, just like Bill Rice’s horse. And right on schedule, my pastor was committing adultery and molesting teen-agers. When I left Hyles, my mind was in theological shell-shock. During my first year at Fairhaven, I could hardly function. I performed my ministries and all the while tried to learn what salvation was. I was afraid to witness to anyone because I was afraid I might damn them to hell. It was the solid preaching and teaching of Fairhaven, and particularly the pastoral care of Dr. Voegtlin that rescued me from the destructive influences of that place.

Statements like the ones you made about Fairhaven are slander. Pure and simple. As are statements like this from your “story”: “While I sat stunned under the preaching, which I found largely shallow, illogical and full of poor hermeneutics, I was reminded of many similar sermons I heard in chapel at Fairhaven .” Shallow? The only way you can make the case for this is by putting up an outline from a visiting pastor. And even that was another slander. I noticed that in your post, you neglected to mention that it was a visitor that preached that message. Dr. Voegtlin would never preach a message like that, nor would Jeff or Steve or Don. Nor would Dr. McNeilly. Nor would Pastor Love. But when you are busy slandering a place, those details aren’t important. Fairhaven is anything but shallow. They are not shallow in their preaching, and they certainly are not shallow in their devotion, in their attention to the lives of their people, or in their desire to glorify God in everything.

The shallow part really gets me. You said in your “story”, "I had to accept that my education is not adequate for me now. I am not confident that it has adequately prepared me for ministry, as most of it was focused on methods of ministry I largely disagree with now, while the rest of it was largely shallow on Biblical exegesis and scholarship, leaving me without enough knowledge of doctrine to be able to chart the troubled waters that face evangelicalism as a whole now." Wow, Bob, I wonder how I’ve made it here in this dark land of Utah. Interestingly, there is not one Hyles-type church in all of Utah. There hasn’t been one for years. There hasn’t been one for any length of time ever. Utah chews them up and spits them out. Some have suggested that your education might be inadequate because you were sleeping through the classes. But I shouldn’t repeat their gossip, should I? Besides, I don’t believe that you slept the whole time. I figure that once in a while you probably woke up long enough to argue with the teacher too.

Here is another slander from your “story”: External conformity to standards and leader-worship are advanced by the movement. You are thinking of the Hyles, Longview, OBC crowd. You are talking cult here. Leader-worship? Are you kidding? As a student, I sat in Dr. Voegtlin’s office, seeking counsel on an extremely sensitive and urgent decision. As a student, I was amazed at how willing he was to listen to me, at how he stressed that he couldn’t tell me what to do, at how he never really did tell me what to do. He simply listened and advised, and that was all. Dr. Voegtlin is a strong pastor. He leads his church, as he should. He is the pastor. No question. But if there is leader-worship in that place, it is in spite of his best efforts to the contrary.

Okay, so here come the denials on your part. And here I was thinking that denial is a river in Utah. I guess you have one too. “I had little ill to speak of Fairhaven either”, you said. It only takes a little cyanide to poison the well, Bob. “You claim I "called them shallow, mocked all they stand for, [and] attacked their pastor". In my letter I said that fundamentalist preaching in general is shallow.” It could be an honest mistake. You write so much that it must be hard to remember all you’ve said. But this statement of yours is a gross understatement, as I have shown.

Oh, but wait a second! You tried to get out on a technicality, didn’t you, Bob. “And I have not said that Fairhaven and its preaching is categorically shallow, either.” No, I guess you didn’t at that. But we all got the picture. When you paint with black, it shades the whole picture.

Now, on the coward bit, I still maintain that you were wrong to take your issues to the public when you hadn’t gone to the pastor’s whose names you intended to use in your “story”. And all the “tu quoque” arguments in the world can’t do away with your responsibility to do so. Despite your attempts at wriggling out from that one, you came close when you said, “I know it is somewhat different since I knew my former pastors, and the IFB preacher does not know the evangelical leader. But still, I think it is strange to expect someone to inform you anytime they disagree with you on anything.” Actually, it is strange that you can’t see the difference between a pastor teaching his people and a former church member going on the Internet with his disagreements. You said, “I do not think it is cowardly to just let them continue in their own way, while I go on in mine.” It isn’t a matter of them continuing in their own way, and you in yours. You attacked their way. You didn’t just let them continue in their own way. Nor did you just go your own way. You went on the Internet with it.

You didn’t bother with talking to either of the former pastors or churches. You rationalized that they wouldn’t want to discuss it with you. Instead, you put it out on the Internet. That way, if they did want to discuss it with you, or if they did have any objections, they would have to do it on your turf. That is cowardly. And it is disappointing. But it isn’t surprising. To me, it is the equivalent of a disgruntled former member going on an e-mail campaign against his former church. Only blogs are more permanent.

You see, Bob, one of the problems I have with the blog world is that anybody can get on there and say anything they want without any real accountability. As long as you can put three sentences together to make a paragraph, you will find people who like what you have to say. It doesn’t matter that you’ve been a knave your entire life, because you don’t sound like a knave. It looks fair, but feels foul. And I have wanted to explain why it is that you have so little credibility among those who have known you in the past.

I’m not flattering myself that this will change anything. My goal has only been to put out another take on the ethos of Bob. But he knows he’s right, and that is all that matters. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts. The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise. All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

By the way, Bob, we aren’t afraid of debate, or of a worthwhile battle. We gladly debate credible men.

Now, that being said, I've been looking at some of the comments that are waiting to be posted, one in particular from your brother, and then some others. Obviously, this stirred the pot, and I am responsible for the tone on this blog. To date, I have had no "policy" for posting comments. My thought has been that we will take all comers. And I recognize that I have let things get out of hand a bit, especially towards Cathy (my own fault). So, I will do my part to correct the tone. I do want to be charitable.

While Christ blasted Pharisees, he was also able to be civil when speaking to them one on one. Cathy, you may have a point here, and I don't want to overlook it.

Dave, feel free to take me to task. I won't promise to agree, but I am willing to listen.

But at the same time, when we get into these debates, we spend to focus on awful lot of attention on the tone, and very little on the substance. I am putting out my arguments. Object to those if you will.

Monday, May 22, 2006 7:05:00 PM  
Blogger Dave Mallinak said...

OK, Dave, I removed some of the rough stuff, though probably not enough to your liking. And for the tone, I apologize. My humor can be biting and I realize that. I only used the name Bob to keep people from knowing who I was speaking of, unless they were already aware of the situation. Of course, now everyone knows. But you get to say your piece as well. And I'm probably talking too much.

Monday, May 22, 2006 7:19:00 PM  
Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus said...

I can understand that David Hayton desires to defend his brother, but the fact remains that his brother has indeed slandered good men, attacked good churches, and done much evil to the people of God. To say so is not "biting and devouring", it is giving warning to the brethren. If that's un-Christlike, then you can feel free to consider Paul to have been un-Christlike as well (I Timothy 1:20, II Timothy 4:14). Christianity requires stands to be taken sometimes, even when some will think those stands to be "mean-spirited". Truth over emotional satisfaction.

I agree, though, that some of the comments made to Cathy above (which have been deleted) were not right. In fact, not only were they out of line from the standpoint of good taste and decorum, but they attempt to use I Timothy 2:11-12 is simply scripturally false. The women are to learn in silence IN THE CHURCH, the local body God has established for, among other things, public and corporate instruction. A blog is not a church, and those verses simply do not apply in a forum like this.

Monday, May 22, 2006 9:28:00 PM  
Blogger Cathy McNabb said...

Pastor Mallinak, first off I would like to apologize if I offended you. I have been debating with guys like this Hayton dude for a long time now, I just don't want you to hurt your testimony, like I have mine in a bit of haste.Forgive me for butting in, but I do know what I am saying here.

Hayton guy, You tell me to run from men Like Pastor Mallinak and Pastor Voegtlin and from churches like Fairhaven.

Dave Hayton, I have known PM and PV since we were in High School
and even went to FBC with both of them. I also left out of bitterness. I been in reformed churches, the Willow Creek brand. I can say it is all soft, no substance, no growth. And the Irony is none of them had a bus ministry or endorsed one (that is something important for a BK that grew up in an alcoholic abusive home)

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Describes the church styles you
endorse.
When my life was falling apart, it wasn't those churches that were willing to help, it was men like PM and PV, that helped.

I too have sat in Preacher's office (Pastor Roger Voegtlin). And he and his family has helped me and my family invarious ways. What you are saying does make me mad. It makes my blood boil with the lies you spew. I also have seen God take care of bigger men then you, Hot shot Pastors who thought they were all that. I am confident that God will take care of you in the same way.If you continue in your heresay and lies.

The reason I jumped on Pastor Mallinak wasn't because he was wrong about you, I jumped on him because I care that he doesn't dip as low as you and tarnish his testimony. So don't think we are friends here, and don't try to give me unsolicitated advice. Because it ain't happening.

May God have mercy on your soul.
Cathy

Monday, May 22, 2006 10:35:00 PM  
Blogger Kent Brandenburg said...

Dave Hayton,

You are wrong, wrong, and wrong. You take the biting and devouring completely out of context of Scripture, mishandling a passage speaking of something occurring in the actual churches of Galatia. Their biting and devouring were not around the truth, but around their unscriptural legalistic Judaism. This is not about that at all. These are people telling your brother the truth in the same forum that he uses for a platform for his unscriptural dealings. The Galatians had a means to get this stopped in the church. Here, we don't. And Bob's material should not be met with silence. This would be over without your brother's talking. I would never ever have addressed him if he wasn't making it public. I never said anything else to him publically until the blog. He has the American right to have a blog, but taking the subject matter at his age, with what he is freshly from, if you think that is wise and discerning, you are very, very foolish. When Bob was with us, Dave, he wasn't a Godly person. I've never mentioned on the web what he did. You may say, "Well, he repented." It is obvious that, no, he didn't. When someone repents, they follow instruction of Scriptural authority. They are honest. He hasn't done that. He chooses to savage the people he's been with, and it only comes across as someone speaking evil of dignities, walking after their own lusts. When he left, he blatantly lied about what he was going to do. And he has been dishonest ever since. You excuse it because he's now a Calvinist, drinking strong drink, attending movies, listening to rock music, and essentially giving approval of your ways.

Are you also saying that public confrontation by women of men is a position that you take in your churches? That's what you are saying here to Cathy. You are fully disregarding the Holy Spirit's inspired writing in 1 Timothy 2:9-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:29-35, but it doesn't matter to you as long as you defend the scorner that is your brother. He is the Spirit of Truth of Whom you are not representing.

You talk about the tone of our writing. Bob knows my tone with him. He is sinning, doing this. The Bible doesn't teach what you believe on the nature of the body of Christ, which is a sad misrepresentation of Scripture, but you are the one offending the nature of Christ. You talk about love. Well, love rejoiceth not in iniquity. Do you expect us to rejoice? You say communicate the truth in love. By that you mean what? To excuse, Bob. We speak to him sharply, and to you that isn't love? Eli's sons were killed because Eli restrained them not. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer, who restrains the world of its lawlessness, and I don't see that fruit of restraint with you. You are defending him, instead of cooperating with what he desperately needs.

Your written prayer is about as egotistical as it gets, praying on the street corner for all to see. And a prayer that I can guarantee will not be answered.

Cathy,

Your verses don't apply at all to what's happening and what has happened. You can use verses and that's fine, but when they don't apply, it is a misuse of Scripture. You should find a group of women and children to give actual ministry to, instead of looking to preach to pastors/men. This should be a shame to you as it says in 1 Corinthians 14, and as Dave Hayton should know. I don't know what you intend to accomplish by stepping in here. If you are not willing to listen to that; it's tell-tale. And if you think Dave Hayton is on your side, you are sadly lacking in discernment. You are wrong about those verses too. They apply to you. They are axiomatic. Women are not to usurp authority over men....period.

I'm hoping, sincerely, that this is the last thing I ever write about or to Bob. It doesn't, however, mean that it will be.

Monday, May 22, 2006 11:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Chris Stieg said...

I know I probably shouldn't jump in here, but let me put in my two cents.

I should make it absolutely clear that I am sad to see the path Bob has taken, and I find his critique of Fairhaven to be somewhat unfair.

However, I respectfully disagree with the one of the premises of the blog entry - that Bob should have to contact the pastors of his former churches before he changed his doctrine, or before he posted it on his blog. I think it would have been a great thing to do, but not Biblically required.

The way I see Matthew 18 is in the context of the [local] church, and Bob was not a member of either church at the time. So I don't necessarily see him as cowardly for his blog, just as I don't believe you are cowardly for expressing your opinions here.

I agree with your other analysis in general.

I hope a war doesn't get started here, though, as I don't think it would be helpful.

Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:04:00 AM  
Blogger Dave Mallinak said...

Pastor Brandenburg, since I don't have a computer at home, I am very slow at posting comments. And all of a sudden, comments have come very quickly. I don't jump to my commenters defense, and I have had some minor irritation with Cathy, but I hope you can see her heart in her last post. I did some thinking on this last night, and I realized just what she said. I have known Cathy a long time, and I know that she is not about to go Bob's way. She is upset that I did this. I removed some of the comments because MANY of the people of my church are upset at the way she talks to me. I won't give her a pass, but I think she clarified herself pretty well.

Cathy, thank you for what you said. It reminds me of when we were in high school. A fight would break out among the boys, a fight that needed to happen, and the girls would all stand on the side clucking about how we shouldn't be doing that. Never mind the issue. This is part of why God calls men to combat, and not ladies.

Dave Hayton, I spent a lot of time last night examining myself against the charges you made. I do not take sin lightly, nor do I wish to lightly dismiss any charge. God commands me to let my speech be alway with grace . I wanted to know if I had broken God's command. It is important to me. Some of my friends might consider this a weakness of mine, but I think it is important to have a conscience that is void of offense towards God and towards men. My conclusion? Yes, it is what you would have expected. Have I seasoned it with salt? Probably too much for your taste. But I find it disingenuous that you have appealed to us to stop this. I think I have leveled a legitimate complaint. I am simply answering what has been blogged all across America. I should stop? I am answering. If you disagree with my complaints, feel free. But if it is only about the tone, then I have a complaint about yours. You don't like my salt, and I don't like your goop.

Is there a purpose in this? I think so. Apparantly, Bob thought there was a purpose in publicly going after the "IFBx's". Apparantly he doesn't consider it divisive to go after them. So, why is it divisive for us to answer? Is it divisive to call us shallow? Is it divisive to call it "leader-worship"? I think so.

Unfortunately, we all have a tendency to applaud whatever we agree with, no matter how it is arrived at, and to jeer at everything we disagree with, no matter how reasoned.

But I digress. I think I have a point, whether anyone else does or not. Answer that if you will. But let's leave off the condescending comments about the tone. And let's let our prayers be heard of God, not seen of men.

Finally, Chris Stieg, thank you for your $.02. I appreciate your honest disagreement. The point about Matthew 18 is to show how we ought to approach disagreements in any situation. Matthew 18 gives guidlines for a grievance policy. We use it in our school. We use it in our home. It refers to the church, but it should apply everywhere. As far as my reasoning then for posting on my blog, Bob has gone public, and needed a public answer. I Tim. 5:20 gives a guideline in cases like this.

Thank you all. Here's to healthy, purposeful debate!

Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Throwback 13 said...

To David Hayton,

* You said publicly to Cathy: “Please observe that these egotistical, unChristlike [sic] men will viciously "turn on you" the moment you evince any iota of honest disagreement.”
* One may have differences with some of the posters on this site, primarily Pastor Brandenburg and Pastor Mallinak, but to describe them as you have above appears to fall into a category of action that is condemned in Scripture. Romans 14:4: “Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.”
* And then you followed this with the request that God would help you to love. This is not my understanding of Christian love. If things are as they appear, I fear for you, friend (Matthew 22:12).

Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:18:00 PM  
Blogger Kent Brandenburg said...

Cathy has already said she is big enough for all this, so I'm saying to her essentially what I think she needs to hear. Hopefully, she that we love her, and have her best interests in view. I understand that she is on the Lord's side, on our side, and won't be going the way of Dave Hayton and that particular group.

I'm out. Have a beautiful day.

Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:42:00 PM  
Blogger John said...

We would like to nominate you for a FreedomToBlog.com Best of Blog Entry.

Please visit our site at: http://www.freedomtoblog.com to submit your blog entry!

Benefits include:
1) Permanent Backlinks to your blog
2) Fully SEO optimized for maximum exposure
3) A chance to be published into a top 500 best of blog book"

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:47:00 PM  

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home